forest podcast brought to you by Nottinghamshire live [Music] hello world Sky I’ve already read 195 so I’ve slipped into the Premier League relegation Zone after two North defeat Aston Villa making it nine games without a win and with tough fixtures to come it’s kind of like an uphill task to say in the Premier League join me discuss the game the relegation picture and Steve Cooper’s future first of all is Greg Mitchell Greg how are you good yeah ready to okay Wide Awake you wide awake uh yeah I’m all right I’m all right I’ve been at a family party so happy 40th to my brother-in-law Ben went to his restaurant last night in Chester and had a few drinks and a bit to eat so I’m all right now though if it’s sweet yeah and a few drinks second guess today is former Reds midfielder Lewis mcgugan morning Lewis you well yeah yeah very well thank you good good good good happy Easter to everyone I said before we started recording I forgot it was a bank holiday so grateful to Greg and Lewis for giving up their time on their days off very much appreciated good to have you all with us Greg we’ll start with you what did you make of Saturday we were saying before we started recording it feels like the tide has turned a little bit in terms of atmosphere in the ground atmosphere online increasing number of calls for managers to go it feel like a pretty toxic day all right for you yeah it did it reminded me a bit of days of old when everything wasn’t perfect every week which we’ve got used to uh over the last season but yeah there’s only one way it can change isn’t there and it has to change quick and all these bad results will be forgotten if we we managed to start getting something but it was a shame on Saturday because we did show signs again we didn’t look like that team that can’t buy winning points and that was the most frustrating thing and you know walking out the ground it did feel different it felt different to the Leeds gain there’s a lot more heads down a lot more angry faces and a lot more questions obviously so it’s not a very nice time at the minute but I’m sure we can change it somewhere well I mean a lot of increasing number of people saying one way to change is to change the manager and we’ll get into the game uh obviously and break that down but I suppose the big question is Steve Cooper’s future evangelist marinak has put out his statement saying results have to improve immediately and they haven’t done so I guess it puts the spotlight back on and we saw increasing numbers of people online saying you’ve got to make the change now where do you stand on it Lewis you’re a coach yourself these days obviously a former player what do you think about Cooper’s future yeah I think it’s that that testing time really uh the the owner came out with the the statement uh and it depends how which way you look at the statement how you want to read it because even though he came out and said that he’s back in the management Stadium but he also kind of made a point of things have to change drastically very quickly uh I think along with that you look at a few of the other teams you look at Leeds you look at Everton you you look at they’ve had that kind of new manager bounce and they’ve got a few more results from that so that doesn’t help help Steve Cooper at all if I if I’m if I’m brutally honest I think that at the after the leads game I think that he probably the owner was seriously considering thinking about uh letting go Steve Cooper I also think they’re backing and the support from the fan base made him reconsider and that kind of coincides with the with the statement which is a bit like yes okay we’ll we’ll back him for now but things have to change drastically I think the other thing is like Fletch said Aaron fletch’s on our last podcast if marinak has felt there was someone out there who could come in and do a better job immediately I guess I mean it’s a cynical world he would have pulled the trigger wouldn’t he Lewis did he do you think sometimes sometimes but he’s also got to to look at the he’s the owner of the football club now the football club for the last 18 months has been in a unbelievable the atmosphere has been incredible the the feel good Factor around the place has been incredible so he also has to look at that and they also probably you’ll have is they have people working for him who are in the know-how within the fans and understanding their day-to-day what’s going on on social media the general conversation The General kind of talk between the funds so that will have a massive Factor the the end of the day he doesn’t want to come and now even at this point go and sat the manager the complete disconnection of the fans and the and the players and the team because at this point in time especially in a situation that’s not going to help anybody so I think that there’s there’s a lot into it maybe they will have people ready they will have people earmarked that’s just that’s just football that’s just how it works but it’s a time of when he’s going to pull the trigger and now after after the leads game I I possibly thought that was a time and I think that there was stuff coming out from the club and the stuff coming out on on sky and stuff like that that doesn’t normally happen unless there’s unless there’s some conversation in-house so I think there was definite conversations had I think there was a definite it was definitely considering it as a football club but I also go back to my original point that I think the the backing uh from the fan base around that point after the leads game I think that may be is given give them a bit of extra time I think as well Greg like other more people saying Cooper out now which is fine I totally respect that opinion I can see why people would there’s a serious argument to be made for it but I don’t think Villa away was going to change anything because they probably weren’t going to win that game Villa won seven out of Nine the sixth in the league now Ollie Watkins is up there with the best strikers in the country to me it felt like like Lewis said I think if you were going to pull the trigger it either needed to be after leads or maybe after the Brighton game I feel like you’ve got to give Steve Cooper two more home games and then then you are in last roll of the dice desperation country because they’re gonna have to get something against Brighton or United and it still feels like to me that they they can they’ve got to replicate the Wolves performance I mean I know the answer this question are you still fully behind Cooper yeah absolutely but I mean yeah Villa third in the form table but we’re gonna have to beat one of these teams soon if you want to stay or we’re gonna have to be an Arsenal or a Brighton or a manual or a team like that to be able to say like because teams are winning below us that’s the kicking out that’s they’re really picking up points um yeah I agree with Lewis that if you’re going to pull the plug it was gonna have to be earlier and I think now the time’s gone for that the conversation’s over you stick with him now uh if the worst was to happen at the end of this season and they got rid of him the best person to take us up it would be Steve Cooper again he’s done it before uh he’s done it with a weaker Squad than we’d have next season and he’s experienced in that role he knows exactly how to do it uh maybe you know we get the back room stuff I don’t know I don’t know what the answer is but for me you stick with him I said it as soon as we won at Wembley that he’s the manager for the season no matter what happens he’s one that he deserves it and there’s still a very very good chance that we stay up it gets me when people are almost mocking me when I say I think we can still stay up of course we can we’re still right in the mix our form has been atrocious worse of the Season by far but that can still change it’s only going to take a result against Man United and how silly as that sounds we’ve beat teams better than the hammer home this season uh you know away from home they’re not the best they’ve got rashford out it is a a very winnable game especially if people truly believe we can in this league then that’s the game where Cooper and his staff and his players are gonna have to stand up and get the result and if they do this conversation’s done over for a little bit longer and we continue and we see if we can stay in this league which we all want to do I think yeah I think we can stay up but I feel like we will go down at the moment it feels very very difficult with the fixtures ahead what do you think the players are feeling there so what are you feeling about the prospects of actually staying in the league now with the fixtures to come I think I think the pressure’s on now listen we can we can we can sit here and we can say maybe get any support they have to go and they have to now go and win games of football and they have to now go even with the you look at the games you look at the Southampton game which is which is a massive point but they have to go and beat one of the big big teams and they’re gonna have to go and probably be also a brighter side that have obviously been very good this season that’s the reality the reality is now the games are running out so you have to be optimistic but you also have to have a bit of sense of reality about it and it’s now you have to win games you have to win games football stainless League simple as that what about the Home and Away thing obviously you’ve been out there on pitches you were at Leeds um they fell apart after 20 minutes is that purely a psychological thing or is that a tactical thing as well yeah to to be to be honest prior to the goal it leads and the goal they was they was playing really good football they was really on the front foot Leeds couldn’t get out once the goal went in it was just a total switch you know the total switch now I don’t know where that comes from I don’t know if it’s sometimes it’s the way they’re set up sometimes teams are set up to play kind of at times Forest put on the counter obviously we’re running and getting them spaces but sometimes they they have to when they actually Score first it’s some especially away from home it kind of changes changes the way that everyone’s thinking but lead second half honestly they could have scored four or five and that and that’s and I and and that’s just being honest I I think on another night they could have won one three or four uh and that’s that that was what’s alarming alarming is the complete kind of disorganization once things kind of go a bit uh a bit not unplanned it it just seems like players are just then playing off the cuff and playing kind of on their own that’s what it that’s what it looked like at Leeds especially in the second half yeah it looks a bit desperate and it was sort of it we’ll come onto the subs of villa as well it felt a bit desperate as well to try and get back into the game the other thing I want to ask you about Lewis is new manager Banks and how real it is the leads going back to Leeds was interesting they played Palace yesterday uh at one mill up people are saying you know uh well Mikey was saying look at these throwing themselves into it trying to win the game not sitting back they’re doing great and then at five one people saying look at Roy Hodgson he’s come in and done great it shows what the what a change does which it to me it’s I don’t think it’s a black and white as that because you look at Bournemouth and they stuck with O’Neill and he’s turned them round and then without making a change you look at Leicester they’ve made a change and got even worse and obviously you look at Palace and hodgson’s come in and they’ve done a great job but Watford fans a year ago wouldn’t be saying that because he went in and stunned the place up so is how real is new manager banks in your opinion oh it’s definitely real what you got to understand it’s like any workplace it’s it’s people are going to be happy some people are going to be unhappy some people are going to feel super confident some people are going to feel like they haven’t got the back end of the kosher stuff that’s just the reality of it when a new manager comes in the ones that have been on the side the ones that I may be thinking my time’s up at the club they get a clean State they get another opportunity they get that they get that spring next day into training it’s like I’ve got the opportunity now I’ve got the same opportunities everyone else instead of maybe beforehand maybe they might be I’m just never going to be right for this manager and that happens so I think if you look at it from the game yesterday release the palace I think whoever won is going to have that if if Leeds won you’re gonna think well as Roy hod should actually done that much and now it it looks like he’s had that incredible impact but I think certain sometimes certain managers uh suit certain clubs and certain players for your point of what for fans I don’t think they’ll have the same uh the same kind of agreement on Hodgkin what he did there but he’s gone into there he knows a lot of the players a lot of the players know him he may be not have changed a lot but it’s sometimes just taking the shackles off a few taking a bit of that confidence putting that confidence a bit in my management it’s only little things the Premier League is that is that good there’s that many good players the differences and as you look at the top Guardiola clock them top that when when players speak about and one of the biggest things they speak about is that my management skills and you look at any how matter management skills because that at times is a big difference because they’re all exceptional players otherwise they won’t be in the Premier League but it’s sometimes that little bit of a bounce that little bit of a a good feeling knowing that the manager’s on your side feeling confident because confidence in football is is the be all an end all for me when you play when you’re feeling confident there’s no feeling like it and maybe that might happen maybe that might happen and you look at some clubs but then you look at Leicester and Brendan’s gone and it hasn’t really had an effect if anything it probably got worse so these arguments both sides uh these arguments both sides but the but the new manager bounce there is definitely truth in that and it can it can definitely have a positive effect yeah I think Forest will probably get to that point in the end unless they start getting results I don’t think maranakis is gonna stick with Steve Cooper and letting them go down I just don’t see it happening personally so I don’t think anything’s changed after that statement I think they need a result very very soon um one thing I wanted to discuss is people kind of blaming it all on Cooper and people blaming different things Greg I want to get your take on what’s gone wrong because I wrote in the notes Here I think there’s four areas where forests have failed this season and there’s a lot of hindsight in this firstly if you look at Brentford Fulham Leeds who’ve come up as good examples recently I think that team was built on solid foundations Brentford had come close so many times and they developed players like Ray I like Tony like Pinnock like Henry who were ready to go and similarly Leeds had Bamford and players like that and Fulham had admit to it forces this whole promotion was built on eggshells I think and in the summer there was a lot of recruitment that was perhaps a bit panicked a bit scattergun January recruitment hasn’t worked as well so I think that’s one area where it’s gone wrong and there’s a lot of mitigation in that because they had to move very quickly second area to me is their injuries have absolutely killed them Henderson Nia Cate Bali Yates a one year I’ve written down here and I know it’s not the same but it’s sort of like taking Rodrigo gundawan Harland out of the Man City team for a long time that’s going to kill you no matter who you are it’s going to affect your relative goals and what you’re aiming for and then the third thing to me that beyond the manager that’s killed them is just giving away points with poor individual errors but you know they shouldn’t be in wolves obviously that was an individual era but Mia Kate V Newcastle were all at Spurs shelvey versus Everton uh Shelby vs Villa there’s a Litany of things where they think they’re made arrows and then the fourth one is you can look at the manager and to me in terms of tactics team selection Subs no one’s perfect and Steve Cooper is 43 years old and he’s going to learn a lot from this season but I suppose the part I’m making Greg is it’s not it’s it’s always a compound picture it’s never black and white is it there’s a lot of things that have gone wrong this season and probably we’re always gonna go wrong yeah I mean saying that this squad was built on eggshells and I get that and that’s the only reason we went up we we went up too early if anything didn’t we we weren’t prepared for it you only have to look at you know the ground in the summer trying to quickly get it ready for Premier League nobody was really expecting it or building for it um but that was the price of going up it was the way we went up it was the only way we were going to go up with these lone players and then having to buy so aggressively in the summer um I do agree though the way we bought in the summer that had been changed the next season or the season after all whenever with planning for the Premier League again you just you’re not going to build solid foundations the way the way we did it this summer but I do you’ve got to give them some I don’t know whether the words Credit in the way they did it because we had to we just had to fill all that Squad up um for me it was the the the January one got me because I don’t really think that many of those players have uh have delivered you know the January signings and also having to pick the 25-man squad you don’t know that was just bad luck when we we lost our Defenders as soon as the 25-man squads picked and then you’ve you’ve got no fit backup Defenders on the bench for many weeks so yeah I mean the injuries they’re gonna have to look at is this just a a freak season where we’ve had so much bad luck but then you get your two two starters back for a couple of weeks and then they’ve gone again now with the same injuries so that’ll be something that they have to look at and I’m sure the people are behind the scenes looking at why this happens whether it’s the training pitch the way we train or or just share bad luck but that does have to change in the future obviously um and I like how you have put Cooper number four on that list because I don’t think he is the the reason we’re in this position I think he’s the reason we’re in the Premier League in the first place and that should always have to be remembered whenever we’re having these debates so yeah there is going to be a a massive look at this in pre-season no matter what league we’re in and I’m sure the foundations are already being built to to make this a more a sustainable Premier League club whether it’s next season or if we go up the season after we’ll be in a hell of a better position um did you I’ve been going into this season did you think they were just gonna be in this position no matter what Lewis or did you think they could could be pushing higher up the league I think you’ve got to be uh you’ve got to understand in the sense that if they came into the Premier League if they stayed up no matter how they stayed up everyone would be really happy I think that you can’t look too far ahead back to Greg’s first point I think it it everything kind of accelerated a bit too quick for everyone for everyone and I think that’s that’s that’s a lesson that you you kind of learning on the job and the and the club and the people at the at the top level will understand where they’ve probably gone wrong uh on that on you on your points and individual mistakes listen the manager can’t there’s nothing a manager can do sometimes then things happens and you feel like you get a punished for every little mistake you you you do and then sometimes you go for a little spell where you get away with a few things that’s just football at any level that will just happen and it just seems to be it will be highlighted more because them mistakes are our customers valuable points but that’s nothing the manager can do once the once the players go on the pitch and the players are trying to trying to make them it just sometimes it happens the biggest thing for me is recruitment recruitment is the biggest thing for any football club when you do your coaching badges when you do your courses when you do all these situations now one of the main things that they drive is your recruitment is your bill on end or that’s that’s that’s what normally keeps you that normally what tells you whether you have a successful season a Bad season and it always normally falls back on your recruitment now I think that the the the recruitment yes they they lost a lot of loan players so they had to get players in I think the type of players that they got in at times didn’t suit but what I think sometimes the fans have got to understand this in a football club that above the manager I.E the owner the owners advisors or the director of football not everyone is all going in the same direction and it may be not nice to hear but that’s the reality of football everybody in there will have their own agendas the owner will have certain agents and certain people that he likes to work with but also the director of football when he comes in now he’s going to build up a different reputation he’s going to build up a different contact base and it might be some people different so you’ve got everybody sometimes working in different directions that’s why sometimes you see transfers and you kind of look where’s that come from because that’s the that’s that that’s what it is because people are trying to look after themselves and do the best for themselves it’s not nice to hear but that is the reality of football even more at the top level and if you look at the the January I I I yeah I I agree with Greg I think it was are you I can understand that are you one even though as a manager sometimes when things are going a bit off-key sometimes you have to maybe try and get a player who one knows how you work two knows you you also he will be a voice in the change room to push stuff to the other players how the manager wants and that’s where you look at sometimes it’s the contribution that they make around the club IU knows Steve Cooper they’ve played with you before he he values him really really well so sometimes from an outside you think to yourself well yeah he’s not getting any younger that transfer where is that going to be improving the squad but it also it might just improve off the pitch and people don’t think that’s important but day to day Monday to Friday that’s where the stuff happens that’s where you sometimes need somebody around the change room listen don’t worry this is what the manager wants this is how the manager does this and that will help Steve Cooper because at times he will feel over that season especially with a massive influx of players that there’s maybe a lot of players that maybe don’t agree with his tactics maybe don’t see the way he wants to play that happens so also you’ve got to look at maybe the manager at times they need to get players in that will fight their corner and will unders make the players understand a bit more with what the manager wants um I mean just looking in the comments the most common comment here or so far say it’s probably about are you getting minutes over surrege is that that’s why you think it is then because the fans are baffled by how Sam storage isn’t getting a kick and you know are you and then Woods was in ahead of him as well and Emmanuel Dennis was and I think he’s done well for the Emmanuel Dennis to be fair but is that that’s the explanation and you think of why storage isn’t getting any minutes well the thing the thing with the storage one is is quite strange because he doesn’t seem to be getting any kind of time now I’m not looking I’m not saying that the iu1 now like he’s coming for that reason that he needs to or play every game now at times you have to if you have the opportunity you drip feed that in what I think what I think Steve Coopers may be where he’s gone wrong is that he’s he’s maybe force-fed IU a bit too much over the other people and that brings scrutiny then on IU does it if that makes sense so I think that is overlooked uh a few of the players that maybe could and try and do something different and that’s why I think that maybe is put a little bit more pressure on himself where he probably didn’t need to um what’s it like in the ground Greg with when IU comes on is there a bit of a groan now and what’s your take on are you versus Suraj as well I’d love to see sarich given some minutes we don’t see what’s going on in trading and it must be seeing something but I’m crying at Sea storage again because you trust him you trust him he’s lit I’ve said it many times these these small chances we get Suraj bangs them on target say God knows why He’s not getting it in minutes you’ve got to kind of trust the reasons but uh I’d love to see him get some money so I really would um IU for me hasn’t really done anything he had one little spell I think it was in the Everton game where you thought all right yeah this guy could do something and then after that nothing but he’s certainly not the only one that’s getting minutes at the minute where you think what why are you on that pitch surely you’ve you’ve shown enough now that someone else could be taking that spot so um but yeah when you say about the crowd I mean there’s one bloke in front of me on Saturday you booed for Oiler when he came on I mean what what are we doing now it drives me insane it really does it’s like how is that helping anyone desperate to be proven right as well that he has a rubbish game it’s just crazy so that frustrates me more than anything none of us are perfect but it’d be nice to have a little think before we do stuff like that yeah and it’s interesting to say about stories because he is a finisher I know he had a nightmare at Blackpool and Miss chances but Forest creates so few chances in games it makes you wonder why he’s not on the pitch to try and take one because we don’t aside from Brennan I don’t look at anyone who’s a natural goal scorer is as well in a sense you’ll get in the six yard box but we don’t have anyone else like that it surprised me a bit um and we did make the attacking substitutions as well when you you look at the the team sheet and when we made the subs they were with with goals in mind clearly so you’ve got to be given those chances and take them if it happens and you’re not going to get any more opportunities if you have you know like lost a performance like that without being too harsh do those attacking subsequently I think you’ve said it Leeds Lewis they look a bit desperate these attacking Subs at the moment is that fair but I just think it’s a bit you I think I think playing I think playing without a striker uh probably around that Striker I think it has to change I think it has to change I understand that at times it’s a season you obviously you play maybe with that you put you’re giving gives white a bit more of that free role but it’s it’s sometimes you look at it you think right is the manager thinking well I need to play Gibbs white but I can’t really play him at at a point in the Midfield three because I don’t feel that it maybe do the other side well enough then you’re going to be overrun so it’s kind of he’s given that free role to accommodate not playing in the Midfield but it also takes away of having that Striker now your only thing it’s all on Brennan trying to score and the reality is when you’ve when we’ve won games and when we’ve done that that that’s what it is it’s you wait for a chance Brandon waits for a chance and he scores but in terms of the the actual game plan it hasn’t really changed but I think now I think you need to have that focal point now who that focal point is the manager’s got to decide that but I think there needs to be that focal point at least to have something as a Target to play off at the at the top end of the pitch for the moment it just seems a bit kind of the second half it’s just up there breaks down and it’s just an onslaught and it’s just everyone’s all all uh sporadic over the pitch and if you look at the second goal yesterday at the point I felt sorry for tofler I felt sorry from at least because he’s 2V1 so many times he’s 2V1 and he’s on his own but that comes back to the point of where the team is just a bit disjointed that laptop he doesn’t get that help and most teams play with four three three they play with them and out winners and then you have four uh fall back to that bomb on and it’s just like I said there’s not much more you can do but if you look at the second goal again it it breaks down Ashley Young gets it Gibbs whites in the left position with IU but no real kind of structure to it bought goes over them softly’s on his own having to try he’s having to try and squeeze to apply pressure but he also knows that he’s gonna get done with one ball right in behind him and that’s and that’s it so that’s the thing what there’s just no structure up the top end at the minute and when it kind of goes wrong in games it just seems a bit kind of gun hole and a bit of free spirit and you can’t do that you expect not in the Premier League you can’t do it because teams will just take advantage yeah yeah I had a good old moan about how they defended and hung the fullback site to dry a bit leads as well so it’s interesting to to hear you say that um let’s talk more about the Villa Game there was a change in formation to three at the back to get Joe Worrell back in uh making them harder to break down from a tactical point of view Lewis were you on on board with attitude because they’ve been so bad in away games could you see the rationale and doing something different yeah sometimes you’ve got to change things sometimes you’ve got to look it differently at that point in time I think Steve Cooper’s probably looking let’s just go a bit more solid let’s just try and see the game through maybe get a a chance on the break and try and try and try and sneak a win with what’s happened previous I think there’s no there’s no issue in that thinking because he has to do something he has to have some kind of reaction especially after the second half at least which we’ve already discussed so uh I watch I’ll watch as much of the game as I as I could as the villa and by all accounts the the the first off and the formation and the and the structure worked but it’s at that point where we were saying uh before off air it’s it’s when you have to now you have to go and win games so it’s at that point where okay the first half brilliant we’ve stayed in the game we’ve kept it tight it’s right when and what’s the time to now go a bit more expansive and if if that when we do that are we then all over the place again and that’s the big thing because like we said we have to now win games of football what did you make of the first half in the ground Greg I thought they did a good solid job to be fair watching it yeah yeah and I liked Joe Worrell I thought Joe had one of his better games this season again um I I’ve Got Confidence in the central Defenders I have I think that they’re really good and then you know with injuries now McKenna’s probably going to get some minutes again isn’t he and uh you’d believe in him as well he’s pretty much at the same standard as Joe so so they’ll be fine it’s just everything around it and I I did like the three at the back I think it worked in the first half um but a friend of ours took a friend of mine before this and that you have to look at when we last got a clean sheet and it was Leicester at home and I think the pairing was Warren McKenna then so I think that is gonna be coming back into it now and whether we just play three Central Defenders away from home I’m not sure but I think it is something that’s going to stay now and it it hasn’t really it hasn’t really been the reason why we’re losing either has it because that first off performance was good it was just you know Hanging On Again the last few minutes and you thought here we go they’re going to score but lo and behold they did at the very start on the second half which which changes the game for everything we just don’t seem to have that that fight to come out and go for them after I speak to Villa fans walking out the ground and they were saying last 20 minutes they didn’t feel nervous one they look they didn’t feel threatened at all and they felt dead comfortable but obviously when we did try and go for it we get punished at the very end but I’d rather go down fighting like that than just hold off for the one mil loss at least we did have a go and try and get it unfortunately obviously it didn’t work but now the rest we’re going to have to take to try and get some points so did you see did you see fight in that team asked to go in one nil down or not so I don’t think away from what I do at home but I just don’t away from home it didn’t feel like we were gonna score and then we go down to 10 men again it’s the injuries again the killing us and he tried to stay on and it was clear that keeping him on the picture was going to cost us more than it was getting him off but you know when we did go down to 10 we did start trying to attack a little bit but it didn’t feel like enough it really didn’t and you know the mistakes cost us and it was it was tough but we are gonna have to see a hell of a lot more fights so easy to say isn’t it and we don’t know what it’s like on that pitch Lewis does but it it was it was it was a tough watch the end of that game it really was and it kind of walked out the ground in a whimper rather than saying we really went for that yeah true there were two other players I thought did well I might come back to to one of them in in Danilo I thought showed good promise again in central Midfield and I thought Nico Williams did well obviously he really struggled at Leeds but he the wing back position suits him a lot more I think especially away from home so let’s just want to give them a quick shout out because I see the clock sticking quite a lot um the goal Lewis the first goals obviously pivistal uh howler from John Joe Shelby I thought he might say different give us a breakdown on the goal and then we’ll discuss Shelby because he’s a bone of contention with fans that just on the goal first what was your take on it no it’s a mistake this you can’t they put trying to discuss it trying to what’s your opinion of the way it’s a mistake a mistake that you shouldn’t make uh I’m not quite sure what is what is it because even if the academy got even if he if he got the pass it puts him into trouble so listen it’s just it’s just a flat out mistake uh and at a major time and that’s that’s not definitely did change it changed the game because straight straight after half time you have a good first off you come out and then there’s a and as a as a player have been out there before you just feel like that’s the last thing you need and it just sucks everything out of you all the positivity that you had first off all the positivity that’s going around the dress room at half time and you feel like right listen let’s go out again 20 minutes keep it tight I hope fans might start to turn a little bit because that’s what you do as a as a player especially away from home that’s what you look at you look at the the way fans keep it as tight hopefully they’ll turn the players will then get a bit edgy and that’s when little gaps will start appearing and you can try and then win the game but for that mistake to happen at that time uh I think it just it just says uh run signals throughout the throughout the whole team true there’s dancers in the comments we’ve had enough mistakes you could have a mistake of the month contest unfortunately could have a mistake of the Season contest but there that’s the way so that’s one of the reasons we’re down there um so on Shelby Lewis um fans hate him I think it’s fair to say now uh I don’t aside from the Fulham game where he came in and did really well I just don’t think he’s played very well it was them is there mitigation for him is it too much of scapegoating of him what’s your take on shelving I think there’s a I think there’s a little bit of all of it to be honest uh John Joe is is what John jewelry John Joe will never change John Joe’s been the same from when he made his debut from the numerous times I’ve played against him he will always put the ball at risk that’s the way he plays and at times he can look unbelievable at times he will do stuff where he will win you the game he will make a pass that nobody else sees but at times he will give it away now I was following this I was having this conversation after our game I started with a few ladies that you have to understand that’s where the the team and the structure and the the manager how it how he fits in now if you look at it from a Newcastle point of view you look at uh Bruno gamer as you look at long staff you look at their their very much same type of player they don’t really play they’re very good with the ball at the feet but they don’t really try ambitious stuff and a lot of managers nowadays don’t like that midfielder who’s going to give the ball away a lot they don’t like that wrist they like sideways backwards stay in your slot keep things ticking over so I think also you you have to understand that what does the manager want from shovey what does his role in the team I all I think that his performance is needs to be better he’ll be the first one to admit he probably hasn’t hit hit the ground running you look at the Everton the penalty that doesn’t help little things at times when you sign for a new club you need little things to go your way and if they don’t sometimes you don’t recover and that’s just the reality like sometimes you just don’t recover and whether fans admit it or not sometimes a player is just not for them and no matter what they do it just won’t be for them and that’s just that just happens for another example Chris Wood before he comes through the door he’s not for them so he has to play out his skin he has to be to a certain example for him to get by if not fans already have made that judgment on it and this emotion will say no I don’t agree with that but it’s the truth that is it so when a player comes through that door after a few games straight away you will have your judgment on them and barring something very drastic it will change and that’s sorry and that’s how I see it so I think that there’s a lot of I think what I said to your phone there’s a lot of things in that he needs to play a lot better uh he needs to stop making the individual mistakes which is costing the team points but I also think that from a Fan’s point of view I just don’t think that he is what they want I don’t I I what is also a big thing is it’s very hard to replace big big players so what I mean by that is Yates is massive for Nottingham Forest at this point in time every fun knows that what Yates brings so when you have somebody that comes in a team for him he’s never ever gonna reach the standard in the fans eyes that Yates does because what she hates brings so you’re already fighting a bit of a losing battle anyway as a player and that’s how it is sometimes you when you have to replace such a big character or a big Coggin in the team you’re never gonna really get over that point and it’s the same I use the same example my opinion for Nico Williams is in his in Spencer’s shadow that’s what everyone always said he’s not he’s not in general is better this Jed did that so everything when he when he mates when he goes onto the pitch and he makes decisions that’s what they’re always doing they’re basing it off the facts of what judge Spence did and the success he had and that’s just the reality and that’s how it looks that’s how it is that’s how it seems so he’ll know that he will know that the fans haven’t taken to him he’ll know that and that doesn’t help because then at times he’s trying to then do something to get the fans on side everyone’s a human being at the end of the day we all make mistakes granted like I said before he needs to play better in needs to then understand what is in the team form and maybe at times not be so risky with his passage at first but he the thing with John Joe he’s not going to change he’s not going to fully change what he is he’s he he’s done the same throughout his career and he’s played in the Premier League for a very long time so he must be doing something right um I’ll come to you in a second Greg just want to ask Louis one more question about this have you been at a club where the fans have turned against you the fans aren’t having you and what’s the kind of psychological impact on that for you if it’s happened it’s a perfect example that I’ll speak from experience Watford I was never gonna Watford was always it was never gonna be long there’s never going to be longevity in it they never talk to me never talk to me and the reason is I could have done a lot of things better at times I could have performed better but I’ve I came in after after the team lost in the playoff final what for come out of nowhere this that that season they played unbelievable I came in they lost uh Nathaniel chalaba who was on loan at Chelsea at the time who was one of the player of the seasons so straight away back to my original point I replaced him and I was never ever gonna be him in the fans eyes because that season them players have given the fans an opportunity to get to Wembley in their promotion where they haven’t been before now if you then take Watford away and put not in your forest in prior to last season that team this club have been nowhere near the Premier League that Squad and that team has get the fans something that they haven’t had for such a long time so I don’t care what anyone says you’re going to hold them players in a different regard to everyone else because they put you into a situation so I’m speaking from experience of at Watford it just never there’s never gonna materialize because sometimes when you follow a situation where is is so good the the previous season or the previous player they’ve just had a such a big influence you have to go into that environment and hit the ground running straight away otherwise you’re gonna be you’re going to be cast aside and and that’s just my opinion people people may not agree but that is just the reality and I think that if most fans sit there and actually have an honest opinion that within two or three games they will make their opinion on a player now if they follow the player that has had a massive amount of success they are gonna always critique him to that player let’s add Greg he’s back he’s gonna happen to you there I am I don’t I that was fascinating listening to Lewis though and it really does make you think twice um because I mean there’s no better person to say there’s someone who’s been through it and that’s like I feel even harsh you’re saying this now but I I don’t want to see Shelby’s name in the 11 on Sunday I really don’t because it’d be great for us as a mid T if we were mid-table and he was doing his risky balls and like say he’s not going to change um that’d be great but it just cost us two massive mistakes the the penalty and then and that on like Saturday the trust isn’t there anymore it’s just not and it you know I don’t know when Navas could be at fault a little bit for parrying her aimed I don’t know but it’s just for me like as a fan the trust isn’t there that he’s going to not protect us when we need it most and I don’t know maybe maybe we’ll start again on Sunday and you know what do we know but it’s I I personally I I don’t want to see him in the in the team on Sunday if it was if it was down to me which he clearly isn’t but yeah it just it killed us it really did on Saturday and it was such a weird mistake as well whether he’s feeling the pressure too much or he just didn’t expect it to be where it was or or was it overconfident thinking oh just a little past where he was it was like and she won’t be doing that there in our position especially that early in the second off it just it really killed us but then later on in that office a brilliant ball across the field and that’s why he’s there I suppose just to open up the game like he can but uh yeah it it just killed us it killed us too much and it’s happened a couple of times now but the results maker and that’s the also the big results make a massive difference on on the outs but on the Outlook of everything now don’t I I’m not saying that maybe John Joe in this period would have played any better but he’s not in the voice of winning games the scrutiny is not what it is now and that’s just that’s just reality if you look at the start of the season where results was going was winning them games the likes of West Ham and stuff was getting good results but there was probably things in that games where if you look back now and you looked but you overlook them because you won the game and you think to yourself well yeah maybe unless it’s something that is blatant a mistake you just turn the you turn the blind onto it and you forget about it very quickly so results have a massive factor in the Outlook of opinions on on players and you look at the January signings well to be honest before January from the start of the season is a totally different environment and a different place to be than it is post-january so in terms of people coming into that environment and coming in to set their marker it’s a totally different football club and that’s the reality so don’t forget football and it’s now even more after the weekend it’s a totally different funbase it’s a totally different fan base because as you can see things now like like you said before things are now starting to come a little bit toxic there’s a little few more arguments and there’s there’s a lot more touchiness on things so now he’s going to be a complete different outlook on certain players to whereas if the start of the season when this when you’re winning games you’re fresh into the Premier League everything’s going well it’s a totally different place to play football is this week the biggest test for Cooper then Lewis because if they lose to Man U then more people are going to turn the players start to you know question the manager more just like Dice and resignation creep in no one thing one thing one thing I know I’m very confident that happening is that the manager still has the change room uh uh and if you look at Joe Warren the club Captain Joe the person he is the player is the money is he he will make sure that that change room regardless is pain or not is is still doing everything properly and and still doing everything for the manager so I think that’s I think that’s a that’s the biggest thing but I also if you look back at one of Greg’s first points when we’re talking about the manager him stay in he might not want to stay regardless of the outcome he might not want to stay because regardless of what people may think stuff going off in the background he won’t be happy with it he won’t be happy with certain things that have happened so he loves this football club but at some point in time he might think you know what I don’t need it I don’t I don’t I don’t want to be in this environment anymore I don’t want to be in this kind of whatever’s you don’t know so I think that a lot of we’re having that conversation about players and about right regardless of if we go down or not don’t attack the manager because he’s the one to get us up he might have had enough he might want a different a completely different Outlook he might want to break because that’s what you’ve got to understand a lot of all this what’s going on he’s got to deal with this but also deal with making sure this team every single day so he’s got both barrels do you know what I mean and it’s nice that listen that’s going to help him massively when the fans come out and the unite and they make they make known of of what they feel about him and that’s why he’ll have the the the love for the club he has already in his short space of time but I don’t think that we should all have our eggs in one basket and thinking that he’s just automatically going to stay because I’m not sure Greg will cry when he goes do you know what though in a weird way I kind of like that that if he left on his own accord and he left the the man all of them respect and you know it was it was on his terms that kind of keep us up this year I don’t know yeah so no it’s a different thought process that is isn’t it but God the stress he must be under he is only human isn’t he so yeah it’s a it’s an interesting one Matt and last one on the Villa Game Greg before we go on to Man U just picking out the one positive or what didn’t really pick up on was Danilo do you see the kind of the evolution of the player and that he’s going to be big for us hopefully in the Premier League next season or in the championship if we can keep him yeah I think we would keep him as well I don’t think he’s done enough yet to like set the but each game goes by more and more people are talking about him in a positive manner and he hit I mean he had that shot where he maybe should have laid it either side to him and there’d have been a better chance but he’s clearly playing with some confidence now in a team with not a lot of confidence around it at the minute he’s having a go and he’s playing off good balls and he looks really good in that position so yeah I I want him in the team she on Sunday that’s for sure he’s playing well he’s starting to do things and he he’s starting to show it because I I did think he was just gonna going to go missing a bit like Scarborough as we’re not seeing much of him at all are we and I thought Danilo was in danger of that at one point but he’s he’s winning his place back and it is a very good argument that he that he keeps it for the time being at least hi hello [Laughter] um just last point I wanted to raise actually thinking about it the injuries we haven’t discussed the injuries creates they’re Killers aren’t they if they are they’re a snare cutter in particular that sense back pairing that’s going to hurt a lot isn’t it yeah yeah I think I I would like to I think Felipe has been terrific I think he’s been he’s been the last the last few weeks he has been Head and Shoulders at times and he’s kept that back line so I think that is your one big foundation I I think I think if you look at near Cafe probably missing now I think Joe’s perfect to go back in I think Joe gets uh stick that he doesn’t deserve I think that he never lets anyone down he he knows exactly what he is and he will always defend first and foremost properly and I think them too is not a is not a bad partnership at all uh I look at back to your point about denilo I looked a lot of things from him uh exactly and me and that’s what I said to you about sometimes they’ve got to find their place and if you look on Saturday especially at Villa a lot of his good work came from driving from a deeper deeper area it came from driving through the Midfield now maybe he’s found that now obviously with Kathy probably coming out maybe he can now take that position and make that his own because I think at times there was there was big promise he he’s got legs he’s powerful yes back to Greg’s point maybe he can make better decisions once he gets to that that final third but that will come but I think that he showed he’s shown a lot of promise maybe having his legs in his in his drive from that deep deeper position especially if you’re now gonna maybe sit a bit deeper and use that use that character is he is a is a big plus uh there’s a person in the comment I hadn’t thought of this Philippe at the nffc86 wife Felipe hasn’t won a game in a Forester poor guy he’s an absolutely immense and he hasn’t even savored a win or a clean sheet or a clean sheet yeah I know obviously play against man city that was a great result um do you think Lewis if a player comes in and they’re injured for virtually the whole season even if you get relegated they owe you a season of the championship in near Cafe I’m thinking here or is he within his rights to one out if we go down uh the I think I think we should take away uh the kind of oh oh I don’t think I think we should look at it he’s coming to this football club he’s he’s wanted to hit the ground one and he wanted to play now at the end of the day regardless of any situation he’s got a contract we’re not in the forest regardless of what in this what if a premier league or the championship the league that they’re in that year first and foremost he’s going to be playing on the forest so until anything happens outside of that nothing changes I think that it’s there’s sometimes that the the thing what most kind of fans think is we go down we leave the only case only if someone wants to buy the player someone doesn’t want to buy the player they don’t go anywhere like nothing and at this point in time he’s hardly played so he’s not like he’s where you look at Brandon where Brennan’s made a real big case for himself where you look to yourself in the summer you think if things don’t go well maybe he’s made a case now that other people look at him so I think that when you look at the majority of the squad I think that’s the and that’s the biggest mistake where I think the club have made in a sense of it’s hard because owners only think about what I’m saying the Premier League because that’s where the money is and what they want to try and do and everything’s fast tracked but I think that if you look are the teams that have done it Norwich did it for a while I think the biggest thing that Nottingham probably should have done everything got accelerated they didn’t expect to get promoted they should have made that they’ve lost the players the loan players they should have made that Squad of that type of right we’re gonna have 25 man squad we’re gonna have 20 solid top Championship players who have maybe got Premier League experience but also if we go back down worst case we’ve got an unbelievable Championship Squad now we’re not looked at because as you see it you look at the team that come back down and you think to yourself well listen they’ll probably go back up that’s where the club should have gone to in the sense of now we’re a better football club regardless we’ve we’ve got the opportunity to get promoted which brings in the finances let’s use it properly let’s use it for the infrastructure to the football club let’s now make this football club regardless of hopefully we stay in the Premier League but if the worst comes and we go down we are now a top top tier Championship Club what are we expecting to go back up instead of you sporadically Buy players that really only come to not in the forest me because they’re playing Premier League and what chances if they then if you then go down where does the squad then sit there and then it’s like yeah then you’re playing catch up again then you’re on to them going probably invest and get 10 12 players again whereas if you had a bit more structure to it and gone well you know what let’s just be solid and let’s have a team that if they play well we can probably stay up but you come back down and then you maybe might lose Brennan you might lose it but you might lose three or four it’s very easy to then replace three or four even though they’re your main players but it’s very easy to replace that and that’s if you look at the success when teams have gone down when they’ve come back up Norwich did it for a long time yes I know they kept on getting relegated but when they went back down and then straight back up and the squads never really changed and I just think from a uh to look at it from that point of view I think that would be better for the football club I think it was an opportunity to make the football club to put into different category and I’m just worried that if worst case scenario and we go down what are we gonna have left from getting the promotion if that makes sense yeah yeah so you’re worried there’ll be an exodus and we’ll be left with look not so much it’s not so much of the Exodus it’s more of the making the football club a lot more doing stuff that you wouldn’t have done if you were still in the championship I think you you could have used that also strength from the squad yeah but also strengthen the the club so regardless of what happens the football club is on a such better Foundation to now kick on instead of right okay you look at some you look at some clubs and you think to yourself right I’m not going to say that those in the Premier League four years ago and you won’t know because they’ve just been a bit gung-ho they’ve done everything a bit rash and kind of everything what happened in that period has now gone and are now struggling the championship and the money’s gone does that make sense to you that that’s that’s that’s where I always I felt they’ve made the mistake yeah or something like that a lot of owners look at it at the end of the day the Premier League’s the the promised land that’s where all the money is now in six seven years time the reality is is that you’re gonna own Nottingham Forest probably not so that’s just the reality of football offering but yeah it’s uh hopefully we stay up and we uh we won’t have to go on that conversation uh I’ll ask you about man united in a minute Greg does that worry you what Lewis said I mean that’s a bit of a not a doomsday scenario but there is a Stoke a West Brom Middlesbrough are doing well at the moment but can’t get out of the league and obviously Derby County’s here the prime example that if you don’t invest properly in your football club and use this money wisely then it can all go uh cards don’t swear on him it could go drastically wrong we’re certainly investing though aren’t we there’s certainly money being spent and then you forget about all the players we’ve currently got out online on Championship squads at the minute panzo Horvath uh bowler at Blackpool with we’ve got a championship 11 uh ready to go already not including any of the current players so I think would be very strong in that League next year but I certainly don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that we’re down there but of course it’s a worry because you you see all these teams that I’ve been former Premier Leagues we know ourselves once you go down there you’re not certainly coming straight back up it’s not a given but I do think we’d be in a better position than most I really do yeah true true but I think Southampton be strong on Bournemouth as well it’s gonna be it yeah but anyway as someone says in the comments we’re not down yet there’s eight years exactly from thinking that talk to me right uh before we go Greg my United we’ve talked about fan kind of division and toxicity on here I don’t know how much that is outside of the Twitter sphere but come Sunday afternoon it’s gonna have to be noisy again isn’t it it’s the perfect game I think for the time I really do think it’s the perfect game you look at the biggest atmosphere in the biggest game of the season so far was Liverpool and you saw what we did with that I know this is different times now but that man united game if we’re not up for that then there isn’t one we can be up for because they’re going to be noisy they are some rare away away fans that make some noise but our our City Grand is allowed and it needs to be on Sunday and that could be the the difference it really helps them and gets some of these players playing out they should do because we’ve proven it like say Liverpool um Man City that big draw man united are not the team away that people think they are they’ve lost some games and they’ve lost some games that they shouldn’t have so we will go for it and it is starting to get to the point now where it’s must win it it is like you can’t hide from that and as long as everyone knows it and and the atmosphere is there who knows can you make a case for them Lewis I’m sure you can I mean if they play a strike and go for it as Greg says does that can you see for us getting something from the game well it’s how many times have we had this conversation I’ve ever read it about the top number like this this really when you look at it is what a lot of the seasons especially homophone has been built on it’s been built on atmospheres creating a uh an atmosphere on a day where you basically have uh order you bats against the wall no one expects you to do anything and that’s where we where we have come up trumps now we have to go and do it so we’ve done it before so it’s not as if we sit in here saying well we haven’t be uh a top six Club All Season we haven’t made uh the city ground of Fortress and we haven’t and that big clubs haven’t come to the city ground and struggled because they have so it’s there it’s just trying to get that blueprint back out uh and hopefully because that’s the reality reality is you get you it’s not let’s hope we’re gonna have to we’re gonna have to win one of these games probably two of these games at least so we’ve done it before we’ve got to do it again and it’s simple as that so it’s just basically now even with a bit of the little bit of toxic it was turning it’s now City ground imagine especially against Manchester United you’ve you fans has just got to come out and make it an absolute unbelievable atmosphere because the other day that’s what’s going to get the players over the line along along the game especially the home games that is what that pays over like what we can’t do now is we can’t turn a little bit we can’t have a bit of negativity and let the opposing teams feed off that because they will I promise you’ll get there they will feed off it any bit of negativity in the crowd that’s what they wait for and once that changes they’ll just feed off that so listen I understand that it’s it’s at that point in time where everything’s tense the games are running out but now the players need the fans more than anything especially from home because that is where we we’re gonna have to now win games that no one expects us to win it’s that simple true true uh right we’ve gone over an hour but I think we’ve covered a lot of good ground just quickly before we go Greg you wanted to mention the kits uh reports it’s gone back to Adidas from macron obviously the historical links with that are you happy with that if it turns out yeah well I mean the athletica report and it’s saying it’s our biggest ever kit or sponsorship deal so fantastic work getting that done no matter what happens next season that’s another thing that’s gonna put us in a really really good place and yeah who can’t not like Adidas really we’re we’re famous for it our most famous years with the three stripes so looking forward to see I think it’s a little bit of a tiny bit of good news in these dark times of forest at the minute quick one before we go um have you ever looked at a kit Lewis and thought Oh Christ I can’t play in that there was a there was there’s some kits that like you feel this there’s some kids can you remember the there was a a wake it was like dark blue with like a Greek dark blue and green so this would have been Steve kochel Sean O’Driscoll area yeah Victor Chandler wasn’t it also yeah Victor Chandler but the home kit as well had a bit of a collar the home kit was when Steve McCarron started the season that year but the material on it was like it was like a it was so fit the material and you just literally you put it on and it was just it was horrendous so so in terms of looks they all pretty much look the same you know I mean yeah you get a few random I can remember under the my early days with uh with Colin Calderwood we had the the Brazil kind of Brazil away kit which is a bit random uh but it’s it’s but it’s more the material monetary cereal sometimes you get some material and you think to yourself who’s who’s been in these meetings decided on these kids because they just not you know what I mean they’re not uh right for football or for any kind of uh activity that’s for sure true true right I think we need to go thanks very much for everyone who’s watched along uh if you enjoyed it do like and subscribe as normal spread the word it really helps uh Greg thank you very much I enjoyed it cheers give me a bit of Hope I’ve enjoyed listening to Lewis so good well yeah me too I was gonna say it’s Lewis you messaged me last night and said you wanted to talk about Shelby and not Hammer him and I thought oh good luck but it’s interesting the way you hear about I thought you might have a very good defense I think people in the comments uh enjoyed your contribution as well so uh Lewis thank you very much no problem uh we shall be back which we write later in the week we’ll talk more about Man U but in the meantime uh have a good week everyone and we shall see you soon

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